Jump to content

Our biting problem...


Recommended Posts

jander12

Hi Everyone!

My wife and I just got our first puppy, Zoey, a couple of months ago.  She has completely stolen our hearts already!

She just barely turned 16 weeks old, and we have done our best to be consistent in all of her training and socialization.  We have had a professional trainer come and work with her once a week, and overall she is a very good puppy.  Of course she is after all still a puppy, so she is by no means the model of perfection.  That being said there hadn't been anything that gave us much concern.

However, just the other day we brought her to a large family function and allowed the kids to play with her for most of the evening.  We had done this before without any problem and thought nothing of doing it again.  Towards the end of the night though - out of the blue and without any warning - she bit one of my nieces on the hand pretty badly and broke the skin.  We were shocked; nothing like this had happened before!  I thought maybe she had just been over-stimulated as the kids had been holding her and loving on her almost non stop for a few hours, and so I took that as a lesson learned to make sure she got enough breaks and alone time to rest.

Ever since then though, she has been showing more and more aggression towards my wife as well.  Today she had something in her mouth and was chewing on it, and my wife being nervous that it was something that would be bad for her or she could choke on tried to look in her mouth to see whatever it was (turned out to be a bread bag clip).  When my wife tried to look inside her mouth, Zoey bit her really hard as well.

For some reason, any of that type aggression is never directed at me.  I wonder if this could be because I am typically the one to discipline and to put her in time out if needed?  Both my wife and I work with Zoey's basic obedience commands and try to implement the NILIF method of training, but this newfound behavior is causing us some worry.

Any advice?  Thanks in advance.

temp_shared_image_1468920292311.png

facebook_1468920414536.jpg

temp_shared_image_1468920685941.png

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
Crinkly

She is Gorgeous!

I am just speculating here, but it sounds to me as if that party with all the kids was too much for her.  Major stimulation overload, tiredness, noise and fuss.  To the point that she bit as a way to make it all stop.  - and of course it worked.

So she has learned to bite if things are not to her liking, and every time it continues to work, it reinforces the lesson.

Does that fit with your view of events?

If it does, I suggest that she needs some gentle lessons that she doesn't need to resort to biting, plus some more child-socialisation lessons pretty quickly, in quiet, controlled, non-stressed environments, otherwise she could start becoming a child nipper.  Sadly, if a single bad experience gets unopposed with fun other experiences, it could just get to be her expectation from children and crowds.  Puppies are so maleable, and good at learning, now is the time to undo the unpleasant associations, before her open flexible little mind starts to close up a bit with age.

Hope that helps!

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
Pawz4me

Lots of red flags here. Most of them on your end --

Sounds as if you got her a bit too young. I'm guessing from your post she was around eight weeks old? It would have been far better had she been allowed to stay with her mom and litter mates for a few more weeks. Nothing teaches bite inhibition like a momma dog and siblings.

I would not have taken a 16 week old puppy to a gathering for hours, let alone allowed children to play with and handle her for that long. I would only have allowed controlled interaction under my direct, close supervision (see comment below about making sure interactions are positive). It's highly unlikely the bite was w/o warning. I'm betting she was giving off plenty of signals and that you just didn't realize what she was "saying."

The biting while trying to pry her jaws open -- have you worked at all on a "give" or "leave it" command? It would be expecting a LOT for a 16 week old puppy to comply with a command like that, and likewise it is expecting a LOT to try to pry something out of a puppy's mouth at that age and not get some sort of reaction. I'd start working on a "give" command by trading up -- when she's playing with a toy offer her a yummy treat while saying "give." If that works right she'll drop the toy to take the treat.

I'm not defending her behavior. It's a bit worrisome and you definitely have some work to do to start nipping it in the bud. But I really think first and foremost you need to look at your own behavior. At this point in her life you should be controlling all her interactions rather strictly to ensure that they are positive ones that she can learn positive things from. You should be setting her up for success as much as possible. A dog learns much better from being successful than from being punished for failure.

How do you implement "time outs"? How do you "discipline" her? Who feeds her?

Please don't be offended. I don't mean to sound critical. These are all common mistakes. Some puppies can handle stuff like that w/o missing a beat. Zoey has shown you that she can't, so you need to regroup. And you can do that!

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
PipsMom

:welcomeani:  to you both. You have been given good advice already...just wanted to welcome you to the family. Zoey is gorgeous 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
jander12
1 hour ago, Crinkly said:

So she has learned to bite if things are not to her liking, and every time it continues to work, it reinforces the lesson.

Does that fit with your view of events?

If it does, I suggest that she needs some gentle lessons that she doesn't need to resort to biting

That makes sense to me, you're probably right.  What are some examples of a 'gentle lesson that she doesn't need to resort to biting'?  The only thing we have been told by the trainer is to try and redirect Zoey to a toy when she is biting, and after two strikes to put her in her crate for a few minutes as a time-out.  That hasn't seemed to be very effective yet, but perhaps we just need to give it more time.  Is there any other ways of teaching that you have found to be effective?

Thanks for the speedy reply!

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
jander12
1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

Sounds as if you got her a bit too young. I'm guessing from your post she was around eight weeks old? It would have been far better had she been allowed to stay with her mom and litter mates for a few more weeks. Nothing teaches bite inhibition like a momma dog and siblings.

 

Yes, she was exactly 8 weeks old.  Unfortunately, as this was our first time getting a puppy and were (and are) woefully ignorant of a lot of things that are common sense to you seasoned pet parents, we didn't understand the benefit of getting a puppy from a breeder rather than a pet store, so leaving Zoey with her mom for longer wasn't really in our control at all as she had already been separated from her mom and in the pet store when we happened to see her and fell in love.

 

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

I would not have taken a 16 week old puppy to a gathering for hours, let alone allowed children to play with and handle her for that long. I would only have allowed controlled interaction under my direct, close supervision (see comment below about making sure interactions are positive). It's highly unlikely the bite was w/o warning. I'm betting she was giving off plenty of signals and that you just didn't realize what she was "saying."

In retrospect, I completely agree.  Hindsight is always 20/20.  Again, this was not the first time we had taken her to a family gathering like this and she had done just fine before, so we wrongfully assumed this would be the case again.  We were so worried to make sure she got plenty of socialization that it seems we over did it.  As far as there being warning signs that she wasn't doing okay... I'm sure you're right there as well.  My wife can verify that I am notoriously bad at reading signs from women, so why would a female dog be any different, right? ;)

 

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

The biting while trying to pry her jaws open -- have you worked at all on a "give" or "leave it" command? It would be expecting a LOT for a 16 week old puppy to comply with a command like that, and likewise it is expecting a LOT to try to pry something out of a puppy's mouth at that age and not get some sort of reaction. I'd start working on a "give" command by trading up -- when she's playing with a toy offer her a yummy treat while saying "give." If that works right she'll drop the toy to take the treat.

She has been taught the "leave it" and "drop it" commands.  She is much better at leaving than dropping however, which makes getting her to give up something that could potentially harm her difficult if she has already gotten to it.

 

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

How do you implement "time outs"? How do you "discipline" her? Who feeds her?

Please don't be offended. I don't mean to sound critical. These are all common mistakes. Some puppies can handle stuff like that w/o missing a beat. Zoey has shown you that she can't, so you need to regroup. And you can do that!

Discipline typically takes the form of a clap to get her attention, short reprimand, redirection, and then praise when she is successfully redirected to whatever is okay to chew on.  Time outs are usually about 5 minutes in her crate with us in eyesight of her completely ignoring her - no eye contact, speaking to her, nothing.  We both feed her, depending on who is home at her meal time.

 

No offense taken.  I appreciate any insight, as my wife and I are brand new to this and desperately trying to learn everything we can to train Zoey correctly.  I know a properly trained dog will equate to a happier Zoey and happier parents.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
PipsMom

:thumb: Good Paw Parents in the making...Proud of You and Your wife for all your efforts 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
Crinkly

You asked about gentle lessons to prevent the biting...

I have only had Cato and Tara, so can only really talk about experiences with them - and neither of them had your unique set of issues.  But here goes:

Cato is a wrestler.  It is one of his biggest joys to play Tug of War, and his little jaws clamp down like a vise.  No chance of pulling anything out of his mouth that he wants to keep.  So we had to think our way around it.  Now, we distract him.  A better toy, a tickle on the back of a rear leg. A treat.  A dramatic look out of the window to pretend Nice Mr Postman is coming... do you see?  He almost always drops the thing we want to get from him, and moves onto The Next Best Thing.

Tara bites (never drawn blood, but it can hurt).  Not from malice, or greed, or anger.  Always from high spirited over excitement.  I have to watch for the signs.  I never put my fingers near her mouth when she is above 7 out of 10 on the Excitement Scale.  Instead, I end the game or switch to a toy, and use that as hand armour.  :roflmao:  If her over excitement persists, and she just gets silly and snaps at anything, toy, clothes, fingers, then I STOP IMMEDIATELY and turn away.  Total disengagement.  She knows the routine by now.  She makes a single half hearted attempt to get me to continue playing, then she gives up and goes and plays by herself (or beats up Cato).  But she knows that she isn't getting any more play from Mum until she calms down.

Not sure if those examples are any use to you, but hopefully it has shown that your treatment of Zoey needs to be specifically tailored to her personality.  Does she get overexcited?  Is she fear driven?  Is she play or food or toy driven?  Would she be distressed by you withdrawing your attention (in which case use it sparingly) or would it make a useful lesson without making her insecure (in which case go for it).

Also, you may find this thread interesting.  As a first time dog owner, trying to learn Dog Language was a steep learning curve, but this book is fantastic, and a nice short read. :)

 

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
Sophie's Haven

:welcomeani: to the forum your Zoey is a cutie.  You have gotten  some sound advice and hopefully it will help in dealing with your issues with Zoey........I will add.........Time....Patience....Love and Routine......once you set a routine stick to it........keep us update on your progress. I have 7 of which 6 are rescues and each day is a learning process regardless how much you think you may know. 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
laketzu

My family is recently new to shih tzus, and are, crossing my fingers, just coming out of the puppy stage and seem to have a well- disciplined dog. Toby went through a biting stage, most of it just a lot of playful puppy nipping. Even then, from a young age, we didn't put up with it. He would get a stern "no bite" and we'd stop playing with him immediately. Sometimes I think we did it hundreds of times a day, but he either learned or out grew it. He also went through a stage with our 4 year old daughter that on 2 occasions he bit her, not in a playful way. However, my daughter at the time was good at pushing his buttons, and although his behavior was not acceptable at all, my daughter also had to learn the acceptable way to treat the dog. When he bit, it was addressed by me immediately. Luckily, we haven't had problems with him biting her since those 2 occasions. Hopefully they have both learned. The only concern I see now is that he is very possessive over his stuff...toys, blankets, food, and will give a warning growl if the kids try to take something that is his. So I guess we are still working on some things. :) Good luck to you.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you have received some excellent advice and I really have nothing to add except to say that consistency is a MUST with bite-inhibition training (as it is with all training).  We keep our puppies here until they are 12 weeks old because (as mentioned above) there is no better bite-inhibition than that given by Mom, sibs and older family dogs.  ALL puppies nibble and chew fingers and toes when teething, and because Shih Tzu teethe late and long we have always given them a tap on the nose with an index finger along with a firm "no bite!" when they misbehave after that, and as a result we have never had biting issues with any we've kept to show.  I also recommended the same to the "extended family" (buyers of our pet puppies) and they have used it with equal success.  You may find this useful as well during your training.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...